She was having a garden party on her back porch and everybody in the party saw this mountain lion across the field down below the porch. But those who called the New Hampshire Fish and Game officer were told the last time a mountain lion was seen in the state was in the 1850s, and it's unlikely they have made a return. Sam Evans-Brown: You know the North America had a number of large predator species when humans first arrived in the continent. A 140-pound male mountain lion was hit by a car and killed in 2011 in Milford, Connecticut. That's pretty elaborate. Thank you. I can't tell you what you saw but it sounds like a mountain lion. And you know it's rather interesting because certainly there are those you as a case of mistaken identity or they wanted to see something that perhaps they actually didn't. We discuss what residents may have been seeing and what breeding mountain lion pairs would mean for our ecosystem. Well thanks for sharing. It was really muscular looking cat I mean is that like a side angle to me. I would say that there's going to be the truth in here somewhere. Patrick Tate: So one thing I'd say is DNA would definitely identify an animal animal's Mark line or not. There was a lot of DNA evidence. Patrick Tate: Exactly I was gonna bring that up juvenile male of. Sam Evans-Brown has been working for New Hampshire Public Radio since 2010, when he began as a freelancer. So I hate the idea that there's some sort of upward you know downward pressure from the bosses saying Don't you know don't tell about the mountain lions because it'll scare away the tourists. Mountain lions when they show up they leave evidence. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. They reported seeing the big tail and everything everything. So hey, just me shooting from the hip, maybe there are a couple mountain lions skulking about. Peter Biello: But clearly you know you're saying like hoaxes people who claim to have seen a mountain lion but knowingly have not or are appropriating photos taken elsewhere of legit mountain lion say out West where they people acknowledge that they exist certainly knowingly or unknowingly in this case the person who sent it to me said hey a friend of mine sent me this photo and said he took it on his back porch also. Really appreciate it. But but I've also seen it cited the opposite way that look they're very secretive. For me as a person who's handled many bobcats and looked at many pictures Bobcat the White chin Bobcat right off is what comes out to me and then the black the the roughs on our Bobcats we'll have sometimes have black fringes on them. Thanks for taking my call. Jun 13, 2011. Were there any differences between these two that we could have noticed right off. So I will just say this is a big reason why there have not been confirmed sightings I think is that the evidence required first. There's always been physical evidence to prove those situations like hair or fur scat hair prints pictures of the animal print scat hair. I believe I saw one that's fine and I'm not looking for an immediate story. We live around Cold Springs Campground and it was undeniably a mountain lion. And why would they what. Peter Biello: Hmm. After apparently trying unsuccessfully to get the young lion to leave, the man decided to shoot it. There is some information that suggests that it spent a portion of its time in Massachusetts near the Claiborne reservoir. Caller: I cannot recall or see the tail in my in my image of it. I mean they're a survivor. There have been several alleged sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. You know I think it's there's a lady Holly Ernst out in California who has done a lot of the genotyping of mountain lions in Northern California the ones that are of course most people have heard about taking down hikers bikers etc. But also I think it proves the opposite point which is that sometimes they're pretty secretive because all the way from Minnesota where the where was the first time was picked up on a game camera to New York. Sam what's the incentive for the government to deny allegedly. Does not test random Scouts. Rick van de Poll: 80 90. It's unfortunate that that kind of thing happens as often as it does. Sam Evans-Brown: I just want to say the bang and word you just heard I think to me exemplifies why it's really hard to come up with with positive you know 100 percent certain evidence that you've that what you've got is a mountain lions. People have asked me about the genetics of eastern mountain lion. I actually been interviewed a couple of times by reporters and with all due respect for the media you know facts aren't always communicated correctly. It's listed as population of least concern. Fish and Game then deny the evidence. It was a 140-pound male mountain lion, the first confirmed in Connecticut in more than 100 years. I just stood there just a second and I came to a complete stop and then I ran away. I came to a stop and it was and I've seen a lot of bobcats in my time and I just came to a stop it was just sort of confused about what I was seeing. So I don't understand really how how this this idea came to be but it is the main reason why folks believe that fishing game is is covering up the fact that there are mountain lions in the state again with no evidence. John Holt's ideas were at first dismissed but he refused to be silent. Peter Biello: Listeners give us a call if you have a question or a story of a sighting 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. But the state always denies it, and none of us know why they deny it. They sent it already. Sam Evans-Brown: So I just had two thoughts which is that we hear a lot of these stories and all of us here have heard these stories. Peter Biello: They make great mascots at least. Peter Biello: Oh okay. About two years ago I was at the Laconia airport on the way home from the airport and there's a big lake on one side called Lily Pond. Less than a year later I found a scat on the swamp range and I was working at the time with a fellow at the Michigan wildlife habitat Federation. For instance, Floridas wildlife officials have a similar ghost cat: the black panther. All they think it traveled north through Canada up you know crossed across the Great Lakes and then and then down again through New York State. The scientific name for the catamount is Puma concolor. But are there mountain lions living in New Hampshire? Caller: So I've been telling this story for five years or so and very few people believe me. I didn't see him online. So Michael follows with the question. The DNA the DNA that they were able to pull from the cat suggested that it was a dispersed mountain lion that came. Through DNA they approximate area in the United States or North America where I was born. So so do what you can get to do what you can to get proof. Sam. Okay. So I learned about what Rick just reported through a heart of heart of New Hampshire a letter and. And the cougar embodies that. What do you think that. Not one picture of him online while the person meet with us. Rick van de Poll: Oh yeah absolutely. And so far we have not had any positive mark lion scats or any DNA. I just want to tell you a story that I read. And I think this is a really interesting story for a couple of reasons one is that it proves what Pat was saying which that basically from New York state where its traces was really picked up on a game camera around Lake George all the way down to Connecticut there was numerous. Possible Mountain Lion Sighting in New Hampshire CONCORD, N.H. -- The New Hampshire Fish and Game Department today reported that one of its staff members, following up on a routine report of a mountain lion sighting, saw what is believed to be a mountain lion in a rural area of Barnstead, N.H. And maybe it's a no holds barred nostalgia for a better world a wild or Fuller world not a world that's constrained by our boundaries and our taxes and our highways. So try to take photographs if you see something like this. Well let me ask maybe Pat and Rick about this. Peter Biello: Well Karl Jarvis a former reporter for The King's son Nile thank you very much for for calling in and sharing your perspective and to his point Patrick T. I mean yes we haven't met the scientific burden of proof here in New Hampshire as far as physical evidence is is concerned but is there room at Fish and Game For A kind of an informal nod to all of the people who have somehow convinced themselves and possibly some others that yeah there may be occasional sightings here. People were calling the New Hampshire Fish and Game director's office saying why are you dragging your feet on this. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all along the waykilled a beaver near the Quabbin Reservoir in Central Massachusetts, left behind prints and DNA at that site, and then was hit by a car in Connecticut. That's why we always go back to the physical evidence to support what they're reporting. You don't know what's going on. When the federal Endangered Species Act came along, the Eastern Cougar (Puma concolor cougar), the subspecies of Mountain Lon ti hat orgi inally occurred Now that to me seemed to indicate that they had done the secondary workup that in my opinion proved the existence of probably a disperse or possibly from South Dakota like the one in 2011. Your support makes this news available to everyone. So I've been convinced the whole time that I saw a big cougar plume or whatever you want to call it standing there in the road in Greenfield. No evidence and other states where Mountain lights have turned up. So and so the idea that they can follow up on every individual sighting is just crazy right. And listeners this has been a lively conversation we're sorry we didn't get to all the the e-mailed comments and the phone calls your stories are appreciated even if we didn't get a chance to hear them today. What Really Caused Washington's Cougar Attack. Somewhere the way they travel the things they do they're going to leave evidence. It doesn't make much sense because you know mountain lions are as we as we said before. Peter Biello: Thank you for sharing that. So for our scientists to do the lumping and whatnot. Well they are the same. Sue Morse: First and foremost if you have color or if you could see details of color look at the front of the face around the Pumas muzzle the muzzle itself is pure white. Author of The last woman in the forest on Saturday July 13th at 7 p.m. at Warner town hall Warner historical dawg. Caller: Well I think Patrick I recognized your name. Right. Thank you. But I do think that it's appropriate that a fishing game agency would recognize verifiable proof if they could. Mountain lion or cat running across. Thanks for calling. The term is because mascots notwithstanding right that they're referred to with a lot of different terms and sometimes they can be confused with a lot of different terms. On June 9 2021 I saw a Mountain Lion along the Connecticut river in Clarksville New Hampshire . He said matter of fact I do. If so that's for us as an agency. The big cat has been extinct at least the eastern mountain lion has been extinct here since the mid. Share. And then just up behind it you know at about 11 o'clock on one side and whatever that would be on the other side it's black. The views expressed in this program are those of the individuals and not those of an HP are its board of trustees or its underwriters. And we want to know your stories if you have them 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 or email exchange at an HP bar dot org we'll talk about conspiracy theories when we come back. The second story window through about 30 feet away from it. Rick van de Poll: Well a report that you know as John Harrigan up north has in co-ops County for about 15 years I kept track of reports and people would call me and tell me where they saw the mountain lion they thought they saw it and it varied right from you know downtown villages all the way to remote highlands of the North Country and and everywhere in between. The sightings have not been confirmed; in fact, there have been no confirmed mountain lion sightings in New Hampshire since one was shot and killed on the seacoast in the 1850s, said Patrick Tate . The big cat has been extinct at least the eastern mountain lion has been extinct here since the mid 80s hundreds. I tracked cats and all the western states. And they used to be this whole list of the different subspecies of mountain lion and it has since been reduced to just to the North American and the South American. And sometimes I've seen pictures of those where it's the question is What is that is that a bobcat. "Of those three to five reports, one. (Cue the X-Files music: The Government is denying the cougars exist!) This decision was primarily for nerdy phylogeny reasons, though, because the eastern cougar probably never existed. Peter Biello: Mm hmm. lewis structure for ch2cl. brings a lot of. Rick van de Poll: Rick van de Poll so I was a non-believer as well. Caller: Oh hi. Let us know your story and share your photos! Kyle I think about Rick Tate wants to jump in here. It doesn't happen as much anymore. So it's six months of a large large predatory animal that moves great distances on the landscape that is not known if it went northeast west Salt and how many circles it did. Caller: I have yeah. The unheralded hero of Apollo John Hubble the man who knew the way to the moon. Think you've seen a mountain lion. Peter Biello: Yeah some of what she was saying sounds like it would require getting pretty close or at least having a nice zoom lens right Sam like. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Is there a way we can learn more about these dispersing mountain lions that may travel through the Granite State and that I would ask you certainly part about whether or not a he's spending too much time chasing down these kind of false leads or B would rather be doing something else that is more informative to whether or not we actually have or can prove that we have dispersing mountain lions in the state. Anytime at any HP broad dot org or subscribe to our podcast search Apple podcasts Google Play or stitcher for an HP bar exchange. So let's let's go to the phones. Phone number 1 800. This is the exchange. Rick van de Poll: Absolutely. Rick your thoughts. My wife and I saw a mountain lion. Me Im willing to believe its possible that there are some out there. We'd be inundated with scouts in the past when newspaper articles have been written about DNA and scouts. So one thing I'll add. So. Peter Biello: The number is 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. "There is a very low possibility of seeing them in the. So one thing that I find fascinating about this Connecticut cat was six months between the New York situation where they found evidence of it too when it was hit by a motor vehicle. You could trace that was this same cat from point to point to point. Just one quick point I think I think when we we talk about these conspiracy theories the real story is that fish and game is an agency that that is short on budget and staff. So that that's more or less I think why I'm here and why I got into this in nineteen ninety nine I found a what appeared to be a print of a mountain lion and that was in the Osprey mountains and I thought well OK that's that's a print. More than 450 Facebook users as of Thursday had shared a photo Marc Weir posted Wednesday showing the big cat and . Some argue that it's a leap of faith. What gets confusing is when you have a large adult animal and a smaller juvenile animal of a different species you can now step start beginning talking about overlapping body weights and sizes. I just don't understand the mechanism for how that would happen. Get your tickets today and one for fifty dollars or six for 150 at NH PR and board. Some of the reports that I looked into that were actually on file at the local fish and game office were even from people who did not live locally. They absolutely do. The best documentation we have in New Hampshire suggests there hasnt been a mountain lion killed by a hunter in this state since 1885. Is this kind of a typical story. It is also known as cougar, panther, mountain lion, and puma, though catamount is the preferred regional vernacular. I'm sorry go ahead you're on the air. Having not found any evidence is not the same as saying there are no mountain lions, its the same as saying we dont know. The great thing about pictures isn't the animal itself it's the background. Mountain lions live in the state. Well within there. Let us know your story and share your photos. So it's there was no question in my mind. We mentioned that one cat that was hit by a car where it has it that it was a male looking for me. Listeners we'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. Yes. Peter Biello: Well I want to ask Patrick about one of these stories a few years ago you had a story about someone who claimed to. I mean that so many of them are false sightings we. If it's someone that has an illegal captive animal that is accustomed to humans those leave a lot of evidence because they want to go around humans to find food meaning they're used to being fed by humans. for some excitement. Patrick Tate: Nice talk to you too. Anyways after three weeks I finally found the image on line on a field and stream photo contest and the explanation in the end was the person that set the camera out with another individual and they believed that someone who knew of the camera location saw the similarities put the can't picture on their SD card so it looked like that camera recorded the image that is. You're on the air. Patrick Tate: Yeah yeah. Mountain lion DNA was recovered from a Petersham, Mass., close to the New Hampshire border, after a 2016 incident in which a horse was injured. I mean I that said I've lived out west for nine years. Tell us your story. John you're on the air. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an PR. Peter Biello: So let's say Rick that it was confirmed that there that there are mountain lines here in New Hampshire. And to anyone listening I would just say you know fishing game who wants proof right. There's just one subspecies of North American mountain lion. I just saw the head and the tail that was leaving. It all used to be based on measurable physical traits color, skull size, paw size, etc but now its based on whether an animal can be shown to be genetically distinct from others. In latest school funding trial, state attorneys argue NH districts' budgets are bloated, Lawmakers, advocates, families in NH react to Biden Admin's proposed Title IX change, Give Back NH: The New England Grassroots Environment Fund, NHs housing crisis is pushing more older adults to seek help. Peter Biello: I did mention four feet nose to tail would be kind of small for a mountain lion. Sam Evans-Brown: And when we talk about subspecies this actually leads to to an interesting tangent which is that the field of biology recently has been sort of revolutionized by the use of DNA to determine what subspecies are. There wasn't a distinct subspecies the North American mountain lion is all is all one species and then you can find a genetically distinct South American subspecies. Reviewing the evidence, the U.S. So nowadays we think of this in the Northeast as crazy stuff that people have a mountain lion as a pet. Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. As wildlife biologists, wed be fascinated to say 'look look what was found in our state.'. Pat what do you think the mystique of the mountain lion. Patrick Tate: While a juvenile not a juvenile I guess if you want nodes to the base of the tail for juvenile that wouldn't be small at all. Peter Biello: When did you allegedly see a mountain lion. We send out DNA samples to the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station. So what I'm getting back is the verifying and confirming of evidence what that was not there. Caller: And then there's the Lily Pond Road and then there's a six foot tall fence. By Eric Orff. We're gonna cue you up and bring into the program listeners in just a moment but I want to ask about the role that Mountain Lions play in the ecosystem we've been talking a lot about mountain lions traveling and being sort of hard to track as they move. So that's the specimen that you find going long distances. Thanks for a great thanks. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. I think as Pat was saying you know 35 to 50 pounds on a male be reasonable range whereas mountain lions you're up to 100 110 maybe even 130 pounds on a big male. Pat humans people leave deer carcasses up in trees. The tail leave is a giveaway but not everybody gets to see the tail. Peter Biello: Yeah well what do you think Pat is. You need you need either a really good photograph or you need you know fresh scat that can be sent to a lab out West that can they can be identified there. I mean there was this one lady I remember and tough tomorrow. If you missed part of today's program listen to the exchange. The states never denied mountain lions are here, and theyve never admitted mountain lions are here. And so a mountain lion is actually quite large right. Peter Biello: From New Hampshire Public Radio I'm Peter Biello in for Lark Knoy and this is the exchange. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Your support makes this news available to everyone. And that the Florida panther was more closely related to the eastern outline than the western mountain lion was. support for an HBO who comes from you our listener Sam from advanced in you a local New Hampshire nonprofit specializing in college student loans and student refinancing options. Give today. Here she is talking about how to identify a mountain lion. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. May 23 . Course like Sue said you have to see it and it's not always that visible. Peter Biello: Rick I believe you did mention that that they do leave carcasses up in the tree from time to time but are there any other species known in New Hampshire to do this on a regular basis. They sent he sent his scent those two samples with his to Wyoming an unfortunate Fish and Game Commission there did not get a positive read on it but send it back to Central Michigan University where they did a nuclear micro satellite DNA analysis and found no significant difference between that scat and other scats that were tested from the Rocky Mountain region. Mountain lions remain an enigmatic animal for residents of New Hampshire, with New Hampshire Fish and Game reporting three to five sightings per week. By, March 2023 Fund Drive Rules and Regulations, Persons with disabilities who need assistance accessing NHPR's FCC public files, please contact us at publicfile@nhpr.org. Patrick Tate: Yes. Have it reported down in the Keene area. From came from out west they tracked it all the way back to the Black Hills in the Dakotas. No that's a little bit outside the range. Well let's talk a little bit about that. The exchange is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio. So I reached down to grab the camera and looked back and like a ghost it's gone. and territorial animals are much more inclined to create a problem with passer bys than dispersing animals in fact I'd be totally shocked if a dispersal would encounter with a human purposefully unless they had already had some type of training to do so. Let's talk to Bob in Laconia Bob. And those are not the same things. Thank you very much for listening. Peter Biello: Today on the program Patrick Tate New Hampshire Fish and Game Wildlife biologist and far better project leader Sam Evans Brown host of an HP podcast outside in which is about the natural world and how we use it. Tonight, Sean McDonald . Is there something particularly hospitable about New Hampshire Forests that make them want to come here. And trying to figure out the little pieces to identify him so I bring up the names the differences but the appearances can be confusing for some. The number 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 so promised a discussion about conspiracy theories. OK. That location they just described we had two or three Bobcats radio collared on just off the runway in Laconia airport. Patrick Tate: So Cougar Mountain Lion katama. We did a short segment about mountain lion sightings earlier this year and and after which I was sent a photo and also a video recording that was mostly just audio because it was so dark the photo just a quick reverse Google image search you can put images online and see where else where else they've been posted revealed that the photo had been taking out taken out in Wyoming and has been used you know hundreds of times to claim and the person who sent it to me said it had been taken New Hampshire. What's interesting about Bobcats is here in the Northeast we have some very large bobcats. The nonbelievers are going to say Show us your evidence and show us prove this to us. But if you do if you think you're looking at a wild Puma their tail is very thick and especially in the winter is very thick and ponderous looking. Seems reasonable! NHPR is nonprofit and independent. Sort of dropped onto the SD card of a camera he'd set up out in the wild. Peter Biello: And then it ran away okay. We are the second most-forested state in the country, and those forests can be impenetrable snarls (part of why the Northeast is notoriously a difficult place to hunt deer), and while there are people in a lot of those woods, because the cats have been absent for a few generations now, most of those people dont know what a cougar scrape or latrine look and smell like. So they're not afraid of humans and they'll show up like a regular housecat. Can we go to the site. Join as a sustainer and support independent local news for your community. However if if and when it does happen it takes up a lot of resources looking at that situation and identifying what's going on because when you start out you don't know it's a hoax. And a lot of people around the county airport have seen a lot of pilots coming in said they saw huge. Id like to hazard the explanation that we really, really want to see a mountain lion. They're just moving around freely. 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